Although I missed the 'first-hand' presentation of my church's sermon on Darwin this Sunday, I caught it as a podcast which they've helpfully done - here's the link.
Don't think that I'm pushing a one-sided, biased commentary on you, by the way, since I can faithfully say that its a beautifully mature look at the ongoing debate about science and God, where the speaker is well aware of the dangers of the fundamentalist's point of view, be they a Darwinian fundamentalist or a christian fundamentalist.
Rightly, I think, Phil discusses the significance of both sides' 'a priori' beliefs and their foundational viewpoints. More than anything, I got the sense from his sermon, that we are not expected to 'switch off' our heads in order to understand more about the 'Who' behind this life, but that science will continue to provide answers as to the 'How' of the universe around us.
10 comments:
Can you explain the term "Darwinian fundamentalist"?
I'd suggest its someone whose beliefs about life are very closely tied to Darwin's Theory of Evolution, mate.
Oh, you mean like scientists and people who trust science? People who follow evidence? OK.
Tempting as it would be, of course, to rise to your sarcastic tone, I'd simply suggest that we keep in mind that no-one has the absolute answer to this stuff and that everyone comes to the table with their own set of existing beliefs, which affects whatever 'evidence' they're subsequently presented with.
I count myself as blessed to have come from the conventionally 'rational' side of the table and to have been shown that I wasn't right after all. It wasn't an easy thing to accept, I'll be honest, but I'm completely grateful to God for guiding me to Him.
I have listened to that sermon again - it was standard ignorant anti-science propaganda full of lies.
The structure of the sermon was:
* claim that you are not anti-science
* claim that science is compatible with christianity
* and then start spreading non-sense about non-existance of transitional fossils, about nonsensical probabilities and other standard creationist stuff...
These things are standard creatiniost arguments which were numerous times demonstrated to be false.
Take a look here: http://www.transitional-fossil.com/
And tell me, why is your pastor lying to you? Why?
"everyone comes to the table with their own set of existing beliefs, which affects whatever 'evidence' they're subsequently presented with"
Well, science work extremely hard to make sure that any set of pre existing beliefs would not affect the conclusions. Whereas religion works extremely hard to ignore any evidence that works against its pre-existing conclusions.
I must apologise firstly that I haven't yet had chance to browse the transitional fossil site you linked to, though I shall.
You're right about everyone in this arena consciously (or more likely unconsciously) bringing existing beliefs to the table, which affects the conclusion they reach. I think this can be said for those of a religious nature as much as for anyone in any field of study.
The one area in particular, which really demands a neutral investigation of ALL available evidence, is, I'd say, the resurrection and I am aware of a fair few strong arguments based on the evidence available that support the resurrection, which I'd be happy to provide you with if you like.
The other angle to this, however, is the huge stack of personal EXPERIENTIAL evidence which people can quote, where God has personally intervened, not just to save them but also to bring change to their lives. For me this is the main thing about my belief - I'm not following an impersonal and distant God, but one who cares for me personally and has seen to it that I am not abandoned when my body stops working.
More than ever, I struggle to see that science will ever supplant God, even though I accept that science will continue to explain many of the things we currently do not understand. Even when we get to the point that science CAN explain everything about not just the material world but also the way we are, then it will still never BE a personal, spiritual, holy individual with emotions, character and heart, and even here I'm short-changing God.
To finish, I have to admit I was also puzzled by your remark about the pastor lying to me and what that might achieve - can you clarify perhaps?
The comment about pastor lying to you was due to the factual claims he has made about the evidence about evolution.
One of his claims was that no transitional fossils were ever found.
And that is a blatant lie. There were many transitional fossils found and I have just given you a link to one of them.
He also has made some other factual claims which were demonstrated to be false by scientists many times before.
So why is your pastor lying to you? Does he have some agenda? Is he ignorant of science? Is he working hard to ignore evidence so that he could bring preconceived notions to the table (i.e. opposite to the workings of science)?
"The other angle to this, however, is the huge stack of personal EXPERIENTIAL evidence which people can quote"
You do realise that certain people have personal experiential evidence of pink elephants or some equivalent of that? You do realise that it is really easy to trick brain into making wrong conclusions, experiencing the things that are not there and even remembering things that did not really happen?
The problem with personal experience of course is that it is very difficult for you to recognise on your own that it is not real. especially when you are surrounded by other deluded people. You have to rely on other people or objective evidence. And this where science and I come in. :)
Linas, always great to get your comments dude! :-)
I find it a tad amusing that somehow everyone in a church should be deluded at some stage in the same way, kind of tricky that one I reckon...
I know full well that I won't ever convince you about this stuff using argument, evidence, my own experiences, it will be God who chooses whether or not you discover Him; so as I care about you, I continue to pray that He will do just that.
And that will absolutely blow you away.
"I find it a tad amusing that somehow everyone in a church should be deluded at some stage in the same way, kind of tricky that one I reckon..."
Extremely easy when you consider that most of those people have been hearing the same stories from the early childhood.
Exactly the same thing is happening in other similar areas - Hinduism, Islam, Budhism, UFOs staring with XX century, witches before that.
Large groups of people can be easily deluded in very similar way, once the brain is primed for accepting certain pattern (by media, by parents, by society) the brain interprets certain things as manifestations of that particular pattern, no matter how silly it is.
"I continue to pray that He will do just that."
LOL :) your prayers are powerless against me :P
Anyway, human brain is really interesting device - I suggest you check some skeptical resources on how to avoid misusing it.
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